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	<title>Comments on: Really equal? Naturally!</title>
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	<link>http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/</link>
	<description>Strain your Brain</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:39:33 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: yaniv</title>
		<link>http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/comment-page-1/#comment-21081</link>
		<dc:creator>yaniv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Rouli,

If you drop the condition that the two sets have equal size then the claim is no longer true. Take the set {1,1,1,3,3}.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rouli,</p>
<p>If you drop the condition that the two sets have equal size then the claim is no longer true. Take the set {1,1,1,3,3}.</p>
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		<title>By: rouli</title>
		<link>http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/comment-page-1/#comment-21065</link>
		<dc:creator>rouli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/#comment-21065</guid>
		<description>Good one. 
My solution to the private case is quite similar to Nadav&#039;s, but much less elegant, so I&#039;ll avoid writing it over here.
I still try to understand the solution to the general case (it&#039;s been a few years since my last encounter with extension fields).

Is there a set of naturals, not all equal, that exhibit this behavior when for each division set A doesn&#039;t need to be the same size as set B?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good one.<br />
My solution to the private case is quite similar to Nadav&#8217;s, but much less elegant, so I&#8217;ll avoid writing it over here.<br />
I still try to understand the solution to the general case (it&#8217;s been a few years since my last encounter with extension fields).</p>
<p>Is there a set of naturals, not all equal, that exhibit this behavior when for each division set A doesn&#8217;t need to be the same size as set B?</p>
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		<title>By: pitboss</title>
		<link>http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/comment-page-1/#comment-21004</link>
		<dc:creator>pitboss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/#comment-21004</guid>
		<description>Hah, I was trying to prove that the rank of the matrix is 2N all day, because I proceeded directly to the general case... This  was quite an unpleasant experience I can assure you :) But the problem was worth it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hah, I was trying to prove that the rank of the matrix is 2N all day, because I proceeded directly to the general case&#8230; This  was quite an unpleasant experience I can assure you <img src='http://leviathanonline.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  But the problem was worth it.</p>
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		<title>By: yaniv</title>
		<link>http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/comment-page-1/#comment-20913</link>
		<dc:creator>yaniv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/#comment-20913</guid>
		<description>Dan,

Great to hear from you!

I agree that with the matrix-solution field extensions are a little overkill (although I still like it better). I wrote it like that so as to use the same argument as in the more elegant matrix-less solution. I think that the matrix-less solution with the field extension is definitely more elegant.

And I will indeed start to update again, I have tons of new stuff to post...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,</p>
<p>Great to hear from you!</p>
<p>I agree that with the matrix-solution field extensions are a little overkill (although I still like it better). I wrote it like that so as to use the same argument as in the more elegant matrix-less solution. I think that the matrix-less solution with the field extension is definitely more elegant.</p>
<p>And I will indeed start to update again, I have tons of new stuff to post&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/comment-page-1/#comment-20886</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 19:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/#comment-20886</guid>
		<description>Seems to me that you&#039;re forcing field extensions on what could be done with elementary-er linear algebra (not that there&#039;s anything wrong with field extensions).

A More Elementary Proof that the Rank Does not Change:
The rank of the matrix can be defined as the maximal number K, such that there exists a K x K on minor which is non singular. Clearly, singularity does not change when the field is extended, as it can be defined over any field as &quot;Determinant = 0&quot;, and the determinant does not change. Thus the rank does not change either.


Good to see you updating again!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to me that you&#8217;re forcing field extensions on what could be done with elementary-er linear algebra (not that there&#8217;s anything wrong with field extensions).</p>
<p>A More Elementary Proof that the Rank Does not Change:<br />
The rank of the matrix can be defined as the maximal number K, such that there exists a K x K on minor which is non singular. Clearly, singularity does not change when the field is extended, as it can be defined over any field as &#8220;Determinant = 0&#8243;, and the determinant does not change. Thus the rank does not change either.</p>
<p>Good to see you updating again!</p>
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		<title>By: yaniv</title>
		<link>http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/comment-page-1/#comment-20877</link>
		<dc:creator>yaniv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 14:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/#comment-20877</guid>
		<description>Nadav,

Good solution. In the last part (the proof for the reals/complex) you use an assertion (without proof) that the rank is the same over Q and over R. The assertion is of course true (I prove it below for other readers). But then the construction of the matrix is not necessary and a more elegant solution exists (again, see below).

The Missing Proof that the Rank Does not Change:
Let T be a set of m vectors from Qn, independent over Q. Then T is also independent over R. Otherwise, let a1,...,am (in R) be the non-trivial coefficients than make the sum 0. Let e1,...,ek be a basis for the extension field Q(a1,...,am). Then in at least one coordinate, we have a non-trivial sum over Q that is 0. Contradiction.

A More Elegant Solution (no need to talk about matrices):
Let S be our set of reals. As S is finite, take a finite-degree extension field of Q that contains all the elements of S. Take a basis, e1,...,en of this extension field. Now, our property holds for S i.f.f. it holds for the projection of the elements of S onto each of the coordinates defined by e1 and en, and it does hold for each coordinate, as it holds for Q.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nadav,</p>
<p>Good solution. In the last part (the proof for the reals/complex) you use an assertion (without proof) that the rank is the same over Q and over R. The assertion is of course true (I prove it below for other readers). But then the construction of the matrix is not necessary and a more elegant solution exists (again, see below).</p>
<p>The Missing Proof that the Rank Does not Change:<br />
Let T be a set of m vectors from Qn, independent over Q. Then T is also independent over R. Otherwise, let a1,&#8230;,am (in R) be the non-trivial coefficients than make the sum 0. Let e1,&#8230;,ek be a basis for the extension field Q(a1,&#8230;,am). Then in at least one coordinate, we have a non-trivial sum over Q that is 0. Contradiction.</p>
<p>A More Elegant Solution (no need to talk about matrices):<br />
Let S be our set of reals. As S is finite, take a finite-degree extension field of Q that contains all the elements of S. Take a basis, e1,&#8230;,en of this extension field. Now, our property holds for S i.f.f. it holds for the projection of the elements of S onto each of the coordinates defined by e1 and en, and it does hold for each coordinate, as it holds for Q.</p>
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		<title>By: Nadav</title>
		<link>http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/comment-page-1/#comment-20875</link>
		<dc:creator>Nadav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 13:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yaniv.leviathanonline.com/blog/riddles/really-equal-naturally/#comment-20875</guid>
		<description>Solution:
Denote the set by S.

For Naturals:

First, lets notice that if S has the property, so does tS for every scalar t. Also, S+t has the property, because each partition is into two sets of equal size N.
Second, we notice that for every element x in S, sum(S-x) = sum(A) + sum(B) = 2 * sum(A) and it&#039;s an even number.
Therefore, sum(S) is even iff x is even - which is correct for every element x. Therefore all elements of S has the same parity.
Now, first we take S and subtract min(S) from it. it will still have the property, still be all natural numbers, and now has a 0 element.
Since 0 is even, all elements are even, and so we can divide by 2 - again and again. if not all elements were 0, sometime, one of them will become odd, and this is a contradiction.
Therefore, they were all 0 - so all of S elements were equal.

For Integers:

Simply subtract min(S), and now all of S&#039;s elements are non-negatives and integers.

For Rationals:

Simply multiply S by LCM(denominators of S) - now they&#039;re all integers.

For Reals and Complex:

Since Q is a field, and we know that every set of rational numbers that have the property are all equal, we can write the following:
Let M be a 2N+1 x 2N+1 matrix, such that - the main diagonal is all 0&#039;s. every Row has exactly N 1&#039;s and N (-1)&#039;s.
Then the dimension of the Nullspace of this matrix is 1: only vectors of type (x,x,x...,x)
So Rank(M) = 2N

but if Rank(M) = 2N in Q, it&#039;s also the rank of the matrix in any other superfield of Q, such as R and C.
So the only vectors in the nullspace of this matrix are (x,...,x) in those fields too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solution:<br />
Denote the set by S.</p>
<p>For Naturals:</p>
<p>First, lets notice that if S has the property, so does tS for every scalar t. Also, S+t has the property, because each partition is into two sets of equal size N.<br />
Second, we notice that for every element x in S, sum(S-x) = sum(A) + sum(B) = 2 * sum(A) and it&#8217;s an even number.<br />
Therefore, sum(S) is even iff x is even &#8211; which is correct for every element x. Therefore all elements of S has the same parity.<br />
Now, first we take S and subtract min(S) from it. it will still have the property, still be all natural numbers, and now has a 0 element.<br />
Since 0 is even, all elements are even, and so we can divide by 2 &#8211; again and again. if not all elements were 0, sometime, one of them will become odd, and this is a contradiction.<br />
Therefore, they were all 0 &#8211; so all of S elements were equal.</p>
<p>For Integers:</p>
<p>Simply subtract min(S), and now all of S&#8217;s elements are non-negatives and integers.</p>
<p>For Rationals:</p>
<p>Simply multiply S by LCM(denominators of S) &#8211; now they&#8217;re all integers.</p>
<p>For Reals and Complex:</p>
<p>Since Q is a field, and we know that every set of rational numbers that have the property are all equal, we can write the following:<br />
Let M be a 2N+1 x 2N+1 matrix, such that &#8211; the main diagonal is all 0&#8242;s. every Row has exactly N 1&#8242;s and N (-1)&#8217;s.<br />
Then the dimension of the Nullspace of this matrix is 1: only vectors of type (x,x,x&#8230;,x)<br />
So Rank(M) = 2N</p>
<p>but if Rank(M) = 2N in Q, it&#8217;s also the rank of the matrix in any other superfield of Q, such as R and C.<br />
So the only vectors in the nullspace of this matrix are (x,&#8230;,x) in those fields too.</p>
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